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Author
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Topic: Stupid question, perhaps....
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Dold11
JuniorMember
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posted August 29, 2004 03:05 PM
 
I recently acquired a 1975 Sandpiper 565 and I am very happy with it this far but have one problem. I have no idea how to operate the Elsan Mini porta-john contraption. As far as I can guess it seems to be some type of chemical toilet. It has a drain in the bottom of the basin and a pump out on the deck but no way to flush it. Also, there does not seem to be any simple way to remove to the tank for dumping either. Does anybody else have one of these? The inability to have a functioning toilet is really cutting into my beer drinking time. Can anyone help? Any info would be greatly appreciated.Thanks.
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Shortstay
Member
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posted August 29, 2004 03:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dold11:
The inability to have a functioning toilet is really cutting into my beer drinking time. Can anyone help? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
You could always pee overboard!
 Actually, I'm curious about the answers too...
------------------
Kevin
Shortstay III, #901
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Hyprstitch
Member
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posted August 29, 2004 04:14 PM
I replaced mine with a port a pottie
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Eric
Member
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posted August 29, 2004 05:31 PM
Flush..., you want to flush this toilet!!  It's a Sandpiper, not a Beneteau LOL!!  It's just a pot to piss in Dold11, literaly! I hope you got the snap in cover that goes under the toilet seat when trailering, or sailing in rough seas, cause if the pot's full, some Snickers bars may splash out LOL! When you go for a pump out, the waste will be sucked out the drain hose. Rinse and repeat. I add a little water and add some chemical toilet pellets, or liguid conditioner/deoderizer when the "pot" has been pumped. It's really basic plumbing, and I'm glad I have it, but I'll be replacing mine with a pumpout style porta potty! A little less gross! I don't get the connection between the potty and the beer drinking though? Y'all drink that much beer that you fill the dang thing up  Eric
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Ken
Member
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posted August 30, 2004 08:10 AM
http://www.westons.com/hh98_30_6.htm There were some boats at Toronto Sailing and Canoe Club with the Elsan porta-pottie in them. I wasn't impressed with the design.
I installed a Thetford 735 MSD in ShortWave. It has worked well for many years. Parts are readily available from RV dealers. I think that Canadian Tire still sells these units...but make sure it's the marine MSD type, with a pump out fitting. The dump-it-at-home style is not legal in no-dumping waters in North America.
http://www.thetford.com/pdf/MarineOman2.pdf ------------------
"Never be afraid to try something new: Professionals built the Titanic
And amateurs built the Ark." [This message has been edited by Ken (edited August 30, 2004).]
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Darcy
Member
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posted August 31, 2004 08:24 AM
The Thetford head is a truly fine piece of head engineering. Many small boats I've sailed on (Mostly Sharks) had them and they seem to fit the bill nicely.When we were looking for a boat, one of our main criteria was a good servicable head. (Actually, it was my wife's first criteria). Shortwave had a lot of nice gear, but the head cinched the deal in my wife's mind. D'Arcy
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whited
unregistered
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posted August 31, 2004 09:41 AM
The toilet that came with my boat resembles the Elsan. I'll have to see if I can find a nameplate on it.
The Thetford looks nice, but I believe Ken had to gouge away at the fibreglass & foam to make it fit.
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Ken
Member
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posted September 01, 2004 10:27 AM
Get a Thetford MSD 735. It should pop right into the same cutout as the Elsan. The storage shed at TS&CC is full of decrepit old Elsans....their time has come and gone.
ShortWave's head has a new freshwater pump bellows system, the bellows cracked in the cold Wx last fall when I was demonstrating it in the driveway in High Park. This head was installed in 1991?? (I think)...and is very clean and neat. There is a larger Thetford MSD...same as the 735 but with a taller (larger) holding tank. It sits up too high and compromises the sleeping arrangements.[This message has been edited by Ken (edited September 02, 2004).] [This message has been edited by Ken (edited September 02, 2004).]
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whited
unregistered
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posted September 01, 2004 11:20 AM
Ken...is the Thetford MSD 753 easy to take out to dump if no cleanout stations are handy?
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Darcy
Member
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posted September 01, 2004 01:12 PM
In the interest of properly bonding with our newly purchased boat, I took apart, checked, and reinstalled the head (as well as a number of other items). It's a little tricky the first time but not that hard. You could dump it into a land based toilet if you had to.The square cushion over the head sits a bit higher but Ken raised all the cushions using closed cell mat (I believe it's wrestling mat). This leveled the forward berth with the triangle addition that gives you an extremely spacious berth. We win both ways; wider sleeping and a very nice working head. D'Arcy
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whited
unregistered
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posted September 01, 2004 05:45 PM
"but Ken raised all the cushions using closed cell mat (I believe it's wrestling mat)."Rasslin' mat??? Now we know why Ken was so anxious to cruise all the time. :-)
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Ken
Member
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posted September 02, 2004 09:43 AM
Veeeeryrrry funnie!!!!
The stuff was around and since it's pretty dense it fills the bill. The extra layer on the berths makes it more difficult to access the storage lockers but the luxurious sleeping space & comfort of the new upholstery makes it worthwhile. In every case however.....the bedding gets disrupted when you need the head.
(We became very adept at hanging over the side for # 1 while underway. Perfectly legal by the way, whereas dumping a pee bucket is not)
FYI, a bucket is considered a Marine Sanitation Device...an MSD...and dumping these in inland or coastal waters is verboten.------------------
"Never be afraid to try something new: Professionals built the Titanic
And amateurs built the Ark."
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Shortstay
Member
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posted September 02, 2004 01:31 PM
For the record, we have a Handihead Model 158 from Monogram Industries. I think it's out of production. It seems to be in OK shape, but we haven't figured out how to operate it -- which didn't stop me from buying chemicals & TP, naturally. We really haven't had the need yet (though we do go swimming! We're planning on going to the Norwalk (CT) Boat Show later this month & heads will be one of the things we'll check out. We'll definitely be looking for the Thetford model. ------------------
Kevin
Shortstay III, #901
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windy island
Member
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posted September 02, 2004 02:12 PM
I also acquired a Sandpiper this spring. I was on my way to see Shortwave, but Ken called to let me know it was gone. I am new to sailing. This is my first year. I love the boat. I’ve modified it already. I did excavate from the existing head hole to the anchor well. I installed a suction hose as a conduit for future plumbing connections for the new head. The one I bought only holds 5 gallons but is sits flush with the platform. I glad I did the work. During the excavation I noticed that the insulation was wet. It turned out that the anchor well leaked, so, I used fiberglass and a lot of epoxy to seal any leaks. I also open up the weeping hole. A previous owner had it approx. 1” higher than the floor. Now the anchor well drains properly and the inside of the boat is dry and I have working head. We have only stayed on the boat for three days, two nights at a time, so we dump into our toilet when we get home.
Ken, you were right about the Sandpiper. Thank you for all your help.
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Eric
Member
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posted September 02, 2004 08:10 PM
 Ken, I did not know that about the bucket  In the confines of Kempenfelt Bay, we'll use the bucket instead of snapping the lid off the head for a quick one. Also when sailing alone, for long distance, I've kept the bucket in the cockpit!Looks like I'll have to rig up some sort of hose and funnel system  Beats heaving to, and the tiller lock can't hold the course for so long Amazing bit of info! Thanks! Eric
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Eric
Member
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posted September 02, 2004 08:16 PM
Uh guys...If we all, (and I'm including myself in this) want to change out our heads, we should consider a group purchase .Like Kevin, my boat bucks are pretty much gone this year. Next spring before launch, I want a new head! My time frame to purchase, would be around Toronto Boat Show time, Jan 05. We should be able to find a good deal during the off season. Wadda ya say? Eric
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whited
unregistered
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posted September 02, 2004 09:03 PM
Let me see what I have for sure.
Would I be able to carry that Thetford 735 MSD back on the plane?
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Ken
Member
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posted September 03, 2004 08:54 AM
I got our Thetford MSD 735 head at Mason's in Port Credit.
http://www.thestoremasons.com/start.html Dealers list:
http://www.thetford.com/service_centers.cfm?state=ON
Canadian Tire may have them but I think that the model that they carry is for camping or cottages. It will NOT have the required pumpout fitting on the holding tank. It's illegal to have a head on a boat which is not connected to a deck mounted pumpout fitting. (The take it ashore and dump it into a toilet kind is not legal.)
http://www.thetford.com/marine_series.cfm
http://www.thetford.com/marine_main.cfm
[This message has been edited by Ken (edited September 03, 2004).]
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whited
unregistered
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posted September 03, 2004 09:17 AM
My situation is different from the majority of 'land lubbers' here. On the Atlantic coast, most if not all keelboats use a 'real' marine head which discharges tru-hull. If I was only planning to sail on the ocean, I would be tempted to try and fit this type of head, although I'm not crazy about drilling two different sized holes in my hull. It would be just my luck that the rules would change and we would join the civilized world.
Since we have very few pumpout stations in this area, I need a head that I can easily pull out and dump elsewhere.
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Shortstay
Member
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posted September 07, 2004 12:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
...but make sure it's the marine MSD type, with a pump out fitting. The dump-it-at-home style is not legal in no-dumping waters in North America.
Ken, are you sure about this? I can understand that it would be illegal to dump your porta-potti in the water, but how can they tell you it's illegal to take it home & dump in your own toilet? As I've researched this issue more -- mainly while in the "reading room" at home -- the more I'd like to get the regular potti, not the MSD. I can think of other non-nautical times we could use the thing & we don't anticipate using the boat for more than 27 flushes at a time anyway before coming home. Furthermore, like Don, I don't really use docks that much & would therefore have to make special trips just to flush the system. We anticipate continuing to trailer for the most part. Anyway, I don't mean to question anything you assert, Ken. It's just that I'm wondering if I'm understanding correctly. Are they saying they'd rather you had NO head & therefore took "warm spot" swimming breaks?!? [This message has been edited by Shortstay (edited September 07, 2004).]
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Hyprstitch
Member
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posted September 07, 2004 07:43 AM
Hello Kevin, in Colorado you better not get caught using the lakes and reservoirs as a toliet. I dump the port-a-potty in the toliet. Most of the time there is a dock close enough just to go make a pit stop. Sid
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windy island
Member
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posted September 07, 2004 09:59 AM
I head bought is the sanipottie brand. I was wrong on my earlier posting. The one I have holds 2.5 gallons. They claim it is good for 30 flushes. It has the vent and discharge fittings. I did need to enlarge the hole to fit the sanipottie into. I also cut a 6" X 12” opening to get the original sanitary line out. I enlarged the anchor well hole and installed a 3” conduit for the new sanitary pump out and vent line. I will use the same thru deck hole but hope to replace the original plastic waste fitting with Stainless Steel. The vent line will terminate in the anchor well.
I sail on the Ottawa River and lakes around Ottawa. Most places do not have pump out facilities. Once I have everything connected, I will have the two options. The 6” X 12” hole will ease the connect and disconnect process when required
Now, I'm off to Newport.
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Ken
Member
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posted September 07, 2004 11:33 AM
On the question of portable heads which are not plumbed into a permanent pumpout fitting on deck:A porta pottie which does not have a place for a pumpout hose and thus cannot be connected to a deck fitting is not an approved Marine Sanitation Device. Human nature being what it is.....If no convenient toilet is available for dumping, then the probability of dumping the blackwater waste contents of a holding tank overboard is very high!
The regulatory people know human nature. I'll try to source the exact quote.
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2short S565
Member
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posted September 07, 2004 01:32 PM
Here ya go. From the Canada Shipping act;
http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/C/CSA/regulations /090/csa091/csa91.html#0.2.VF5B4I.Z2BFBE.7FFTID.P3 If you have a toilet you must have a holdng tank (portta pottie satisfies this).
But the holding tank it must be securely fastened to the hull. I don't think bungie cords count here. The holding tank must be plumbed to a proper pumpout fitting and be ventilated to the outside of the hull. So as Ken pointed out a plain old porta-pottie is not legal. I had a Sani-Pottie (West Marine)that came with hold down brackets and pumpout and vent fittings so it would have been legal if fully installed. I never used it in 4 summers so I never did hook it up. I learned to eat very little. I also learned to hang over the side while under sail for #1. Fred [This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited September 07, 2004).] [This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited September 07, 2004).]
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