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Author Topic:   Still Without A Floor
SuperPiper
unregistered
posted October 12, 2003 05:58 AM           
I mentioned earlier in the season that the cockpit sole collapsed on my Sandpiper. I sailed the summer without the floor. It was cool to be able to stand upright while tacking and gybing.

Why did I not repair it?

Well before closing it in, I took the opportunity to glass the 2 plywood bulkheads fore and aft of the area under the floor. I have also decided to install a pair of bunks for the gas tank in this area just behind the keel (this project is yet to be started). The new floor will have a hinged access door. I have noticed a few in the Boaters World catalogue for + or - $170. Unfortunately, they are not quite the dimension I require. I hope not to have to build a cover. Pre-engineered is the way for me to go.

I know the dark secrets of this little boat and I still love her. She is even pretty sitting on the trailer in the back yard. I promised her a plastic garage this year to keep the snow and ice out of her bilges. Apparently RONA has them on sale. Has anyone purchased one of these? What is the life expectancy for a portable garage? Is there one large enough to take a Sandpiper and trailer?

whited
unregistered
posted October 13, 2003 01:14 PM           
Care to share those 'dark secrets'.
I haven't given up on a Sandpiper...
When I get a chance to travel next May or June I plan a road trip to Quebec/Ontario looking for a late model 'creampuff'.
My ideal boat would be a late 80's model,
in excellent (or like new) condition with
a 4 hp four sroke outboard and a galvanized trailer also in excellent condition.
Am I dreaming...? Does this boat exist?
I'd like to


SuperPiper
unregistered
posted October 14, 2003 06:08 AM           
Water in the hull. . .

It was so long ago that I forget to even mention it. I replaced the cockpit drain (2 bulkhead fittings and a curvy piece of .75 inch hose) with a 2 inch straight fibreglass tube. The old system was always plugged with leaves and mud so the cockpit would be knee-deep in water. The new drain never clogs. Except that, the Sandpiper sits bow-down at the dock and there is always 2-3 inches of water in the front of the cockpit. This permanent collection of water eventually finds its way into the inaccessible bilge under the cockpit. And, from there it saturates the styrofoam bouyancy and seeps under the cabin floor and finds its way into the lockers under the berths.

While I have the floor removed, I am going to do a bit of redesigning.

Ken
Member
posted October 14, 2003 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken   Click Here to Email Ken     
Water in the Hull??? Sheesh!!!!
If your boat sits bow down at the dock there's something else wrong.
The motor, large gas tank and a heavy duty marine battery sitting aft in the lazarette keep my boat floating on her lines....even with a 7 lb danforth and 25 ft of chain in the bow locker. By the way....after my Sandpiper coped with ISABEL and that rainy Toronto week afterward, all four lockers and lazarette were still bone dry!


SuperPiper
unregistered
posted October 14, 2003 03:33 PM           
Hey, Ken:

Does your cockpit drain completely? Mine always had a little water left in the forward corner. Even if I stood on the transom, the boat would not pitch enough to drain the cockpit.

I think that some original literature shows 2 drains at the front of the cockpit rather than 1 at the rear-centre. Perhaps there was a mold change sometime after hull #123.

I know that my lazarette leaks into the bilge under the cockpit. When I lifted the floor there was evidence that some of my epoxy work had leaked from the lazarette to the bilge.

My lazarette stays dry since I removed the transom. The cockpit seats now drain directly overboard rather than through the hose drains (that were usually plugged).

But Ken, I have seen the photos of Shortwave. You have kept her in Bristol shape. My 'piper was neglected for a couple of decades and it is only in that last 5 years that I have been devoting attention to the details. A stitch in time . . .

elmet3
unregistered
posted October 14, 2003 05:19 PM           
My Sandpiper sits so that almost all water drains from the cockpit. I have never found any water in the lazarette nor any place else in the boat. I don't know what is going on under the floor, can't see.


Jean
unregistered
posted October 19, 2003 01:15 PM           
Hi Superpiper
I have the same water problem.I want to put a manhole for inspection and removal of water.I was thinking to cut a hole at the base of the step inside the cabin near the keel.
You see the inside of your boat,do you think it is a good place to put this manhole.
It would be interesting for Sandpiper owner to see pictures of the inside.If you have pictures,and want to share them,i can put them on my site and give you the link,so people can see them.
Jean


SuperPiper
unregistered
posted October 20, 2003 12:24 PM           
Jean:

I tried placing a hole in that location. It is now a locker for flares. You see, that volume immediately behind the keel but forward of the cockpit is filled with foam. I bored out a 6" round cylinder through the foam(using a piece of stove pipe as a boring-drill) to form a 6" round x 20"(+/-) storage locker. The 6" screw port provides a good finish inside the cabin.

I successfully accessed the bilge by cutting a 6" port down through one of the quarter births. This allowed me to sponge the water out of the bilge.

What I found when I finally removed the cockpit floor was that there were two 3/4" holes through the plywood from the bilge into the foam filled area. This was probably how the foam was poured into the void before the deck was placed down over the hull and liner. I am convinced that water from the bilge has soaked through the two open holes and has saturated the foam behind the keel.

I have since glassed over the plywood bulkhead and have covered the 2 holes. I have not yet plugged the crescent-shaped opening above the plywood bulkhead and between the hull and the liner. I know that the Sandpiper claims to have water-tight compartments; however, I suggest that everyone reach up and aft from inside the quarter lockers. There is probably a narrow, unblocked space. This allows water from the bilge to climb up into the locker when the boat is sailed on her rails.

I can email some photos to you.

whited
unregistered
posted October 20, 2003 01:34 PM           
You guys are making me nervous about the Sandpiper. The boat I looked at last spring also had a 'spongy' cockpit floor.
I heard that you should weigh the boat at a
roadside weigh station to get an idea how much water you're shipping. Stripped of all
extras, the boat should weigh between 1200 and 1300 lbs.


Eric
Member
posted October 21, 2003 07:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eric   Click Here to Email Eric     
I guess I'll weigh into the conversation.
Don if you look at a 'piper with a "soft floor", look for any cracks in the gelcoat around the edge of the cockpit floor. I don't know why the floor would be soft. maybe it's age or a "Friday" boat. If there are cracks, and the boat is stored on an uneven surface, combined with winter freeze/thaw cycles, there "could' be water entering.
Also look very deep and careful into the lazerette at the base where the plywood bulkhead meets the hull. If you see cracks, there is a potential for water infiltration.
Water can get into the lazerette if the boat doesn't sit level on the trailer, or the trailer isn't sitting level. The cockpit drains(2 on either side of lazerette) do not completely allow for complete drainage, even when the boat is completely level. If the boat is stored un-level, it is possible for the water to pool in the aft most corners around the lazerette. If the foam rubber seal of the lazerette is old and worn, the water, if it pools high enough, can get into the lazerette. The other point is if the owner keeps his drains clear. I run a piece of wire through them regularly.
This is why I recommend looking deep inside the lazerette behind the cockpit floor drain for any degredation. If there was/is any water there, a freeze thaw cycle may cause a problem.
There are many GOOD Sandpipers, with solid floors etc, no gelcoat cracks etc. I've seen them!! Just keep looking.
My theory though is this. The boat was designed with positive foam floatation. I think the intent of the designers was to bulid a boat with a sealed bilge. That is, they never intended for water to get into the bilge in the first place! Once you have a Sandpiper, or study it like I have, you'll see that this is the case. There really is no way water should get into the bilge. Problem is that the Sandpiper fleet is aging. Mine is 27 years old. I've come to accept that a boat this old is going to have some "quirks". We in Canada have cold winters, something the English designers don't have. The freezing cycles are bound to play havoc on water leaks etc.
I've had to re-bed all deck fittings and repair wood core in many of these areas. It's better now than the day it left the factory. So I think the best we can do as owners of the fleet, is be vigilant agaist water leaks. Check to make sure we store the boats level, and/or covered in the winter, and check deck fittings, for leaks and re-bed. As far as water in the bilge, I'm going to explore cutting an access hole at the lowest point of the boat, in the cabin floor beside the keel trunk. There will likely be water there. It's 27 years old, I have to expect it! Then I'll install a bilge pump here, details of which I'm still contemplating. Then I have to keep on top of leaks and repair them. But if water gets in, I'll have a way to get it out!
Sorry for being longwinded!
Eric


Jean
unregistered
posted October 21, 2003 01:43 PM           
Great Superpiper
Here is my adress
letourneau.jean*uqam.ca

replace * by @
I will put them on my site and give the Url


elmet3
unregistered
posted October 21, 2003 10:10 PM           
OK, Eric and Superpiper have got me a bit worried. I did find the tiniest bit of water in the lazerette, but I don't see cracks in the bulkhead, nor in the cockpit floor. But I would like to ascertain if water has entered the bilge and if any damage has occured. Superpiper recommends access through the quarterberth and Eric suggests acces through the cabin floor. Superpiper, what is under the quarterberth if I decide to go in that way? Is it foam or open space? Do you know what is under the cabin floor? Also, how much water do you find in there? Like I said I have found no cracks that indicate water intrusion, but I suspect some water must have gotten in over time. If the amount is very low, I may just drill a small hole, like 1 inch dia., and stick an air line in there and let air blow through at low velocity for a week or two. Do that once in a while during the year. But I really must access the foam to feel if it is dry or dries out after the bilge is flushed with air for a while, otherwise I won't know if I have done any good.
And while my cockpit floor does not appear cracked, the comments here this year have made me very sensitive to stepping down onto it. I think 180 lbs dropping onto it over and over is just too much stress. I'm thinking about putting a plywood insert on top of the floor to distribute the load and reduce the stress. Cut a hole for the drain. If it deteriorates due to weather and water I will just replace it.


Eric
Member
posted October 21, 2003 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eric   Click Here to Email Eric     
Don't sweat it elmet3!! Your boat sounds good!
What I was trying to draw attention to is basic maintenance of our boats. Cracks have to be fairly noticable and obvious to let in water. This is common in any boat. I'm suggesting that we as owners pay heed to these areas during our regular inspections of the boat. There are many boats out there, and you and I and all the other Sandpiper owners can't change the treatment they recieved from their PO's.
You guys with new boats can be advised earlier of areas to watch for and maintain!
Anyone looking to buy a Sandpiper should be watchfull as well.
My Sandpiper #144 is a versitile little trailer sailor boat! Suits my needs and I get a "buzz" sailing her. I'm planning to take her to far off vacations . Georgian Bay for sure. I'm glad and proud to own her! For me doing a little maintenance goes along way to nsure she continues to give me enjoyment.
Eric


whited
unregistered
posted October 22, 2003 09:35 AM           
Eric...
speaking about sailing buzz....
Believe you moved up from a CL14....
which boat is more 'fun' to sail?

As far as the cockpit floor in the Sandpiper...what about a nice teak floor made of 2" or 3" wide lengths of the wood?


Eric
Member
posted October 22, 2003 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eric   Click Here to Email Eric     
Hey Don.
No I haven't sailed anything smaller than my Sandpiper. I would love to go out in a CL14 or 16! In fact when my kids get a little older I may consider getting one for them to learn on and me to play on!!

As far as the floor, you can read my mind! I'm going to be working on that idea over the winter. Pricey though. I figure if the grating is strategically supported, it should save wear and tear on the original floor underneath. And look real classy too.

By the way, there's a sweet Sandpiper for sale in my town. Early '80s with a Dark Blue hull if I remember. Solid clean boat. Not sure yet on $. Owner needs cash for business.

Eric

whited
unregistered
posted October 23, 2003 08:27 AM           
Hi Eric..
Where did you say you lived...on the other side of the world in London, Ontario??
Can you get there from here??

I won't be able to make the long drive until next spring...but if the perfect boat popped up, I'd probably haul it back in a blizzard.

whited
unregistered
posted October 23, 2003 08:32 AM           
Hi Jean...
I loaded up your pictures......
beautiful boat, beautiful crew, great sailing location.
You seem to have it made!

By the way...most of the later model Sandpipers I see for sale are in the Montreal to Lake Champlain area.
They must have been popular 15 years ago


SuperPiper
unregistered
posted October 23, 2003 08:40 AM           
Elmet3:

The area under the quarter berth is the famous inaccessible bilge. On my 'piper, this void was loosely filled with styrofoam blocks (2-1/2" x 3-1/2" x 12" to 24" long) and a few styrofoam slabs (3" thick x 12" to 18" rectangular). I was able to remove a lot of the blocks through the 6" access port I installed. The rest came out when the cockpit floor was removed. The styrofoam was amazingly heavy.

I am currently sailing without the bouancy that is a feature of the Sandpiper design. I may choose to strap a pair of tire tubes into the bilge.

I am not a fan of wood on a sailboat. But, I really like the suggestion of a wooden cockpit floor. I will need to think about that for a bit.

Eric
Member
posted October 23, 2003 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eric   Click Here to Email Eric     
Jean, I must have missed it somewhere. Do you have a link to your webpage? Would love to view it. Thx
Eric


Jean
unregistered
posted October 25, 2003 10:23 AM           
Eric
My web page is at: http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/letourno
But the pictures on sailing are not yet in a web page,but you can see them at: http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/letourno/sand
Sailing pics were taken on Lake St-Louis near Montreal this summer.



Jean
unregistered
posted October 25, 2003 12:09 PM           
Just a test:


Jean
Member
posted October 26, 2003 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jean     
Well my Sanpiper is one of the first,number
154,maybe around 1976.The guy who sell it to me,was sailing on lake Champlain for 21 years.
And the boat was out of the water 90% of time



Jean
Member
posted November 18, 2003 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jean     
Hé Superpiper,Have you got time to take pictures of the inside of the patient?


SuperPiper
Member
posted November 19, 2003 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SuperPiper     
Jean:

I took a couple of photos on Sunday. However, the digital camera belongs to my son. It is new and we are having difficulty getting the pictures to download.

I will get them to you ASAP.

Eric
Member
posted November 20, 2003 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Eric   Click Here to Email Eric     
Nice pics Jean! My Sandpiper is #144, a few months older than yours I suspect.

Eric

Jean
Member
posted November 23, 2003 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jean     
Thank's Superpiper,




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