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Author
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Topic: Water Problems
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KenM
Member
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posted October 09, 2005 12:20 PM
 
Hello,
Been working on drying out the boat.It sat in a friends back yard for 10 years, with no cover, and was used primarily as a "tree fort" for his kids as they were growing up.
Problem #1 is the cockpit floor being cracked around it's whole perimeter. This is allowing water into the flotation chamber,and is leeching into the storage compartments inside. Floor is very spongy,and I've read it's caused by the shrinking of the foam underneath. I've been told i can cut it out, build the foam back up and epoxy the cut out piece of the floor back in. I received West Systems brochures so i now feel a little more comfortable doing this with the new info. i now have. Anybody have any experience to pass on to me with this particular job??
Problem #2 is the Anchor locker is filling up with water after a rain.I know about the drain hole, and it's obviously plugged, but where does this hole drain to???. I'm trying to keep water OUT of the boat!!!!
Problem #3 is water related also, as the plywood bulkheads between the storage lockers are all delaminated, in some spots very badly. Do I dry these out as much as possible and epoxy/glass in, or is it best to cut out the bad spots,or cut out the whole thing and repair how???
Install new ply and epoxy/glass in?? bad spots to be working in too. Again, any advice, tips, experiences anyone has had doing this would be appreciated.
Ken
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whited
unregistered
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posted October 09, 2005 01:18 PM
The first 'Piper I came across in my area was like you describe. All dirty & beat-up looking with spongy cockpit sole and old rotten trailer. The Johnson outboard looked almost as old as me. I'm not half as brave as you...I ran away as fast as I could to look for something closer to the 'creampuff' I really wanted..
My skipper buddy did the same thing last week. He went over to a neighbouring province to see a Cal 34 'project boat'. One look at it's condition scared him away.
If you have the apitude, rebuilding an old neglected boat can be rewarding...but if you factor in your time, materials, replacement parts, I bet you end up paying almost as much as finding a 'gem' good to go.[This message has been edited by whited (edited October 09, 2005).]
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KenM
Member
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posted October 09, 2005 04:08 PM
The boat was a gift. To date it has cost me nothing other than the inconvenience of it being parked in a reaaly bad spot at the side of my house. I'm not running away yet.I have superior mechanical/construction skills,just never worked with boats and fibreglass repairs before. I'll get the hang of it...........eventually.
Ken
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Windroos
Member
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posted October 09, 2005 05:39 PM
>>>>Problem #2 is the Anchor locker is filling up with water after a rain.I know about the drain hole, and it's obviously plugged, but where does this hole drain to???<<<<<The drain is at the bottom of the anchor locker. It goes trough the fiberglass at the front end of the boat. A little bit inclined as to drain easily. So if you place yourself in fron the the boat, you'll see a hole about 12 inches (did no mesured it beacause my boat is at the marina) below the deck. As for your project of rebuilding it, I think it is a graet idea. How is the overall of the boat? Deck fitting, sails, rudder and specialy the keel and it's brass shaft and bearing? If you ever wonder how the shaft can be checked, there is a post on the forum about it. I can even send you pictures of it if U need them. Good Luck ------------------
John
Quebec city
1981 Sandpiper 927
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KenM
Member
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posted October 09, 2005 07:13 PM
Keel and screw,and the bearing,are in reaaly good shape.1st thing I checked after speaking to the folks at CL sailboats in Fort Erie. Dead straight screw, and I lubed it 6 ways to next year a few weeks ago. Lucky for me CL are only a 30 minute drive away from where I live, in Welland. Don't see any hole through the hull 12" below the deck for the water to drain from the anchor compartment, or am I misunderstanding something?.sails are OK, rudder needs some minor repair. Another large problem which I'll tackle later is no gooseneck for the Mast/boom connection. Scuttlebutt is they're no longer made or available!!
Ken
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whited
unregistered
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posted October 09, 2005 07:29 PM
The drain hole for my anchor locker is just above where my trailer's post mounted roller meets the boat's bow.
It's still raining hard, otherwise I'd go out and measure exactly how far above.
I remember discussing this July 2004.[This message has been edited by whited (edited October 09, 2005).]
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Windroos
Member
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posted October 10, 2005 07:55 AM
<<<I spoke to someone at C&L this spring and he told me he could have made one for me. Around 70$ I think. Can't remember is name, maybe André or Andrew. He did sent me a fax showing the parts. I will try looking in my file to see if I still have something on that subject.------------------
John
Quebec city
1981 Sandpiper 927
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KenM
Member
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posted October 10, 2005 10:12 AM
Thank you John,
Oddly enough, i drove down there this summer and they told me they MAY have a replacement for it coming, but that it wouldn't be available until next spring.
Ken
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Shortstay
Member
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posted October 10, 2005 12:14 PM
I'm remembering that someone (Don?) posted about coming across a 'Piper that looked abandoned & in pretty sad shape. Perhaps salvaging the boom from a 'Piper no one loves & is too far gone might be the way to go.The self-bailing drain for the anchor locker is about 1' below the mooring padeye & 2' below the deck seam on Shortstay. It's about 1/4" hole. I'd probably let the bulkheads dry out & glass them. I don't think they are critically structural. Cutting out & replacing them seems like a lot of tight work for minimal payoff. I'd put that project way on the backburners. As for cracks & sponginess in the cockpit sole, I have a similar situation & it bothers me some, but I have just lived with it to date. I keep her covered religiously & that seems to have pretty much stopped new leakage & I think we've weeped all the old water out at this point (collecting mainly in the forward quarter lockers), but it has taken quite some time. I obviously don't know if your situation is more critical than mine. Superpiper did the major rework of his collapsed cockpit floor. Here is a link to the thread where he first discussed it. I don't recall follow-up threads or pix, but Supe' is here often enough to ask/email. ------------------
Kevin
Shortstay III, #901 [This message has been edited by Shortstay (edited October 10, 2005).]
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Eric
Member
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posted October 10, 2005 03:03 PM
Hey Ken M, thanks for telling us you live in Welland!!  I'm originally from St. Catharines. The next time I'm going down to visit the inlaws, I'll give you a shout, if time allows. Good to hear you're mechanically inclined. You need to be, in order to own a salboat. Re #1, Superpiper has done the whole floor removal thing,,,,and then some  If you search back a few months or even a year in the forum, you may find the posts. He put up pics of the project as I recall. One other area of concern, is in the aft lazerette. Check the bulkhead at the very bottom for cracks. Generally water will migrate into the lazz, and can freeze/thaw down there, and let water in. [BTW, West System is great stuff, and their manuals and support are excellent]. I wouldn't think that all your water entering the cabin lockers is from the cockpit leaks. If you have other leaks from deck fittings, teak hand rails, the rub rail, or poorly fitted hatch boards, the water will find it's way to the cockpit locker.
Re#2, the drain hole should be at the very base of the anchor locker floor, draining out, down, and away. Also, check for a good seal around the head pump out hose as it passes through the anchor locker floor.
Re#3, the ply between the lockers will help to add stiffness to the berths. At either end of the lockers, furthest forward for the front, and farthest aft for the rear, these pieces of ply, are separating the locker from the foam floatation. I would try just drying them out first and see what condition the wood is. If it's ok, then I would fillet in some thickened West, then glass in some tape. It's all in the West booklet. As you said, not the best place to work. Here's a pic for you, of my mess, when I replaced my head last spring. Not exactly on your topic, but it may give you some idea as to whats under the inner cabin skin .
 Here is after. I used 1/4" ply, and filleted in West, then glassed in tape, and coated the works with unthickened. The finished product is quite rewarding. [I don't have a pic of the head area, painted, showing the head installed  .]
 Good luck and keep us updated. I'll be very interested at what you find, and how you correct the problem. Happy Thanksgiving!
Eric [This message has been edited by Eric (edited October 10, 2005).]
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Windroos
Member
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posted October 10, 2005 03:13 PM
My cockpit sole has spring in it when I walk in the center. So, this winter, I am building (don't know the right word for it) a wooden floor. Will use little board of teck separated by 3/4 inches and crossing each other at 90 deg angle. Like the floor you see on big boat.So the weight will be distributed to the side of the floor instead of the center. This should do the trick. Filling the little fiberglass cracks should avoid any water entering this part of the boat. Hope I am clear enough. Sorry for my english. ------------------
John
Quebec city
1981 Sandpiper 927
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KenM
Member
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posted October 11, 2005 07:27 PM
Thanks for the replies...much appreciated.
Spent some time over the week-end on some minor stuff. Bought a tarp to cover her with for the winter,(it's already loosely on as we're expecting 3 days of drizzle/rain this week). Also replaced all the thru-hull fittings for the drains, as while I was at Wal-Mart pricing out tarps I came across the fittings on year-end sale for $2 each. 3/4" ID hose fittings to boot, which is an improvement over what was already there. Had to grind out the holes a little to get them in,but I'm over that nervousness now.More on that below!! Finally found the hole where the Anchor locker drains to. It was almost completely hidden by the roller on the trailer. Stupid, over-analytical me,(it's the way I am),never thought that it would drain directly thru the hull at the front of the boat...HELLO!!!!!!!
I'm contemplating ripping out the cockpit floor prior to winter, even if it just gives the area a chance to dry out.All plywood I've examined so far is still soaked and delaminated.Would put me in better shape next spring to get in there and replace/repair what's needed. The tarp should help out over the winter. Having seen some photos of the modifications done to some of the boats on the forums, i'm becoming a little more comfortable with cutting "this and that out", and not expecting the boat to fall apart in the process. VERY MUCH A NEWBIE WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. Again, over-analysing,due mainly to lack of experience. I'm getting to trust your posted opinions more and more as time goes by.
Thanks again for your time and help.A special mention to John,(Windroos),Quebec City. Don't apologise for your English language skills.You're doing good.
My French language skills would probably cause a Political crisis, and lead to another Referendum. Ken
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Windroos
Member
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posted October 11, 2005 07:45 PM
Hi KenFeel free to ask anything. We are there to share our expreriences and mistakes. I had a row boat last year (a gift fron a friend) wich was very wet. I covered it well but let some air pass trough the ends. I know that the air in winter is much dryer than in the summer. Finally in june I opened the tarpaulin to discover that the wood was very dry. So your idea of making a lot of hole is a good one. You'll se when spring time arrive what you will really have to do. I for myself drill a 8 inches hole on the left bunk near the lazarette. This way air is circulating from front to back. You have a nice project and the boat is fun to sail so, your work will be rewarded the fist time you sail her. I had my first sandpiper in 1983 so you see, you really get to love thoses little boat. Cheers. ------------------
John
Quebec city
1981 Sandpiper 927
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KenM
Member
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posted November 22, 2005 09:29 PM
Well I finally found the time to do some further investigative work on the source of water in the boat,and got up enough nerve this past week-end to cut out the cockpit floor to check out the flotation chamber. Although it's been a while, prior readers of this thread may recollect I had an inkling that this area was the source of constant leeching of water into the berths in the cabin. What I found blew me away. I removed approx. 150lbs. of water soaked polystyrene from the chamber. I was expecting to find some kind of "closed cell" foam designed specifically for marine applications. Am I correct in this assumption?? I understand that there are standards set by the coast guard(?) that govern flotation foam,and what can/cannot be used for this application? Anyhow, what I pulled out looked like regular polystyrene, all different shapes and sizes, looked like an arbitrary collection of shipping box packing just thrown in to fill the space. There was a small "dollop" of what I can only assume is the correct material covering about 2 to 3 sq. feet of the hull about 6" deep. The balance filled in with the above mentioned box filler type material. The plywood bulkhead separating the flotation chamber from the lazerette was nothing but a wet mulch consistency and came off in my hands and rolled up like a ball of wet snow. SO........looks like I found my problem. After cutting out the cockpit floor, which as I mentioned in a previous post was "Spongy", i noticed that there was evidence of plywood having been installed between the layers of the cockpit floor. i.e. starting from within the flotation compartment and working out,fibreglass,plywood,cockpit floor. I believe this rotting away of the plywood between the two layers of fibreglass comprising the cockpit floor led to the spongy feeling of the floor itself. I am a Newbie to this,and some of you have infinately more experience than I with this boat. I'm just passing on information. I recollect a couple of forum members having the same spongy feel to their cockpit floors, and remarking that they didn't think that it's such a big deal. I'm glad I took the plunge and did this. At least come next spring, I'll have a dry area to work with and fix. Those of you with the spongy floor.......maybe you'd like to re-think your opinion on whether it's wise to cut it out and check out the extent of your potential problems. Any advice,comments, always welcome.
Ken
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SuperPiper
Member
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posted November 23, 2005 04:25 AM
The core under the cockpit floor was most likely end-grain balsa. Was it not composed of 1-1/2" squares about 1/2" thick?I did the same surgery to Sapphire a couple of seasons ago. The plywood bulkheads were still in good shape. Before re-constructing the floor, I completely glassed the liner-to-hull gap and glassed over the plywood bulkheads. The volume under the cockpit is now 100% isolated from the rest of the boat. When the floor was re-installed, it included a 13" x 17" hatch cover to allow access into this space. My winter project is to cut the battery tray out of the lazarette and relocate it to the forward centre-line of this bilge. The battery will be only about 2 feet from the keel and will be just under the companionway step - very close to the electrical panel. I intend to inflate a truck tire tube as a bouyancy tank and to help clamp the battery in its place. You are probably disappointed in your boat right now. But, take advantage of the new found space. It is a great location for a case of beer.
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KenM
Member
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posted November 23, 2005 07:22 AM
It may have started out as squares of end-grain balsa. Unfortunately, it was just randomly spaced areas of brown mush when I got to it last Sunday.
Thanks for the idea of the hatch cover,etc,for next spring's repair.
Do you have a photo of that installation?
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whited
unregistered
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posted November 23, 2005 09:58 AM
i wonder where those odd shaped pieces of foam came from/ Does it look like a previous owner may have 'stuffed' it there...or installed at time of manufacture?
Tom at CL might be a good person to ask.
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Darcy
Member
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posted November 23, 2005 10:30 AM
The other neat points to keep in mind on Superpiper's cockpit floor is the finished floor slopes to the drain and the drain holes are huge. This means they're far less likely to clog. The positive slope means no standing water on the floor.
D'Arcy, Shortwave
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Patrick Crooks
Member
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posted November 23, 2005 08:25 PM
I did some hole cutting this fall as well to see why the inside lockers were filling up with water. What I found was kind of suprising.The first hole I cut was the veritcal wall in the v-berth area where the head would be. When I cut that open I found empty space. The next hole was the vertical wall of what you would consider the inside step of the companion way. What I found thier was wet plywood but the foam was dry. My last two holes were the quarter berths. I cut a hole into each one. I was more surprised there. I thought this area was to be flotation but what I found was a couple of pieces of white styrofoam in random shapes thrown into a very large empty space. I'm thinking of making this area another storage locker.
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elmet3
Member
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posted November 24, 2005 08:32 AM
Can anybody post some photos, close inspection photos, of these investigations? I think i know the locations being refered to, and I think I know what you are seeing, but these problems are serious enough that I'd like to evaluate the situation real well before I start cutting holes.
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KenM
Member
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posted November 25, 2005 06:33 PM
I'll try and get some digital photos this week-end of what i found and described in an earlier post this week, weather permitting. Looking back on previous posts to this thread I started some time ago,please refer to Eric's Porta Pottie installation photos. The designated "flotation area" behind his new installation looks to me like it contains the "Real Stuff" required to be able to call it a safety feature of the boat. This is the same material that i found in the bottom of the area under the cockpit floor. I referred to it in a prior post as a "dollop" of stuff, covering maybe a 2ft. * 3ft. area, 6" deep. This is probably less than 15% of the total available area in this cavity.Another 20-25% of the available area was filled in with what Patrick Crooks describes as "random shapes of white styrofoam in a large empty space". This white stuff in my boat was completely waterlogged. This left about 50% of this floatation area empty to whatever, including Water.I'm glad Patrick was able to confirm my findings on his boat,and that he also agrees with me that these findings are serious to warrant further investigation on his part. I'm not here to beat up on the Sandpiper. I just have some concerns about the some of the safety features becoming compromised, especially with the older boats, some of which may have received better care than mine. It could very well be that whatever has or was thrown into these flotation areas is capable of keeping the boat from sinking in a worse case scenario. I'm not a marine floaty engineer. I just don't like what I saw when I ripped out the cockpit floor last week-end. It does not leave me with a warm fuzzy thinking about the possible worst case scenario or consequences.
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SuperPiper
Member
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posted January 08, 2006 04:03 PM
Here is a photo of the battery shelf in Sapphire. It is about to be relocated to the bilge under the cockpit.Hey look, there is Sapphire's cockpit drain. It never plugs. 
And then . . .  [This message has been edited by SuperPiper (edited January 15, 2006).]
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SuperPiper
Member
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posted January 16, 2006 03:59 AM
What is your gas tank arrangement?My outboard has the typical 5 gallon, metal tank. It really just slides around in the bottom of the lazarette. Do any of you have something more sophisticated? Is there a way to secure the tank? Are you packing more than one? What size?
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whited
unregistered
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posted January 16, 2006 09:52 AM
Good question Dennis...I've been thinking about the same thing.I may make another larger shelf similar to the battery shelf for the port side.
I gave away the metal gas can that came with my boat and bought a plastic one...just in time. It was ready to leak.
Some type of securing strap will be installed also. (don't want can sliding and rupturing my new 1" cockpit floor drain hose.
note: my new plastic tank seems to vent all the time. I wonder if there's anything wrong with the gasket where the fittings are attached to the tank itself?
I had left it out in the sun...filled and with the cap tightly closed. The dealer said it might just be the odour of splashover on the tank...so I'll wash it and test in the spring.
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Ken
Member
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posted January 16, 2006 01:04 PM
Our plastic gas tank sits outside all summer in the full hot sun in the bottom of our inflatable dinghy. If the vent valve is closed, the tank will swell up with internal vapour pressure and cause the fuel line connectors to bleed gas into the water and all over the tank. Most everyone at our sailing club leaves their dinghy's and day sailor's tank vents open to prevent this. There will be a slight smell of gas when you get close to the tank. Of course, the vent must be closed when transporting the tank.
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Ken
Member
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posted January 16, 2006 01:15 PM
The cockpit drainpipe modification on Superpiper looks interesting. Is it a glassed-in piece of plastic tubing? Could it fracture if wacked by a heavy fuel tank or other piece of gear stored inside the lazarette? ShortWave has a heavy piece of steel- reinforced fuel line at this location. The drain's thru-hull is normally just above the waterline when the boat is stationary and not heavily loaded. With the additional load of a motor, fuel, battery and a skipper + crew I'll bet that the thru-hull is partially submerged. I always wondered why a thru-hull valve wasn't originally fitted.
That particular item never made it to the top of my to-do list. [This message has been edited by Ken (edited January 16, 2006).]
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Darcy
Member
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posted January 17, 2006 01:02 AM
With the 3 plastic tanks in the lazarette not much slides around. We have a long cruising range but the stern is a bit heavy.
D'Arcy, Shortwave
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SuperPiper
Member
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posted January 17, 2006 04:22 AM
D'Arcy:What size are the tanks? 3 gal? 5 gal? 2 tanks plus a jerry can? How do you have them arranged? Do any of you recall a photo of a 'Piper with upright gas cans with outboard vents? I would like to view that again. [This message has been edited by SuperPiper (edited January 17, 2006).]
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Shortstay
Member
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posted January 18, 2006 05:31 PM
I built a wood frame on the port side of the laz & bought a red plastic "gas tray" to go on top. The frame is attached to the transom on the stub end of a bolt (can't remember what it holds on the outside!) and the forward end is secured by two L-brackets pop-riveted through the bulkhead. There is a strap, guides on the side of the tray & additional plastic guides to hold the strap in place, which I secured to the wood frame. I think it was about US$20 through Defender. I built the shelf because I was tired of the fuel getting cut off to the outboard due to the slope of the laz. Also, the fuel line frequently was stretched a bit short! I put it on the port side since that's the same side as outboard bracket & snake the fuel line out the cowl vent on that side. Works beautifully now. I guess we have a 5 gal rectangular plastic tank, which I rarely fill greater than 2 gal since we don't burn that much at a time. I also have a 2 gal spare tank that fits under the frame which I will sometimes leave empty, sometimes carry spare gas, depending on level of main tank. Were we to cruise farther afield, we'd "load-up" with 7 gal! The frame shelf also has room to hold a small plastic bin into which I put oil & a measuring bottle, among other things. It's held in place by a bungee. It's a bit complicated to explain properly. I'll post some pictures in the spring.
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