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Author
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Topic: Soliciting advice on moving up from CL 16
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Dougster
Member
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posted May 23, 2005 05:48 PM
   
My Wife and I just finished our CYA Basic Cruising course and are considering moving up from our CL to something with a little more room. I am torn between getting something like a Sandpiper or Venture 22 that can be trailered and something like a C&C 27 or Tanzer 26 that would stay in a marina or yacht club. Any advice or experiences would be appreciated. I have a couple of questions about the sandpiper. From the postings here there seems to be lots of folks having lots of fun with them however, some frustations seems to leak in now and then around the hull speeed. Are they really that slow? I have some questions about their safety as well. Are they self righting? Has anyone out there ever been knocked down? How did it do? Do they have positive floation? I would appreciate any and all answers to these questions. BTW, just got back from the first two sails of the season on the CL 16. It's still lots of fun  IP: 65.48.213.102 |
whited
unregistered
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posted May 23, 2005 07:11 PM
The age old question....what compromises are you willing to live with?
Where do you sail? Most people in my area (coastal Nova Scotia) have keelboats. They tend to sail better in the more open waters with higher winds. On the other hand..where would you keep your boat? If you don't have waterfront property, you may have to join a yacht club. $$$
I guess if sailing performance is most important, you'd look for a keelboat, but if
you like to sail on the cheap...or try different areas/lakes a trailerable boat is best.
The sailing we did on a friends Mirage 33 could have been done easily on a Sandpiper
(less crew capacity) but our skipper paid about $ 4K per year to belong to 2 clubs with launch/haulout services, slip for season and winter storage. This includes $ 500 worth of food services the Squadron made him buy each year.
Then you get into maintenance costs. A genoa for his boat was $ 2500.00 vs $ 500.00 for the 'Piper....etc etc.IP: 156.34.82.87 |
CoolBreeze
Member
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posted May 24, 2005 08:22 AM
It all dpeends on where and in what conditions you wish to sail. Lake(big or small), or Ocean. Once you answer this, I'll give you my .02....... ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"CoolBreeze"
Halifax NS
Dartmouth Yacht Club IP: 142.176.14.228 |
Dougster
Member
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posted May 24, 2005 10:22 PM
Thanks. If we get a fixed keel boat we would moor it (and sail) on lake Ontario. If we go with the trailerable it would be mostly Pigeon and Sturgeon on the Trent with some trips to Ontario, Simcoe and maybe Georgian Bay.IP: 65.48.213.102 |
elmet3
Member
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posted May 24, 2005 10:29 PM
I was hoping you would get more reponse. i have also asked about stability, but I haven't heard from anybody that truly got knocked down. I came pretty close once, through a combination of events and errors, and the boat healed - I don't know - past 45 degrees. It was pretty quick and I was a little too preoccupied to look at the angle gage. The boat immedeately rounded up and stood up. Actually it behaved very well and got me out of trouble that i had gotten myself into.
The Sandpiper has positive floatation and the manual states it is unsinkable. there is a lot of floatation in a Sandpiper and I believe it would be unsinkable. More importantly to me, it is a very sea friendly boat. It has high freeboard and rides waves well. I have never felt at risk of taking on water.
What size boat is best? I definately enjoy the characteristics of the Sandpiper, and I try to take advantage of the trailerability. I also enjoy the relatively low cost. I am very aware of the advantages. Someday, I expect I will own a larger boat. At that time I will take advantage of the features of a larger boat. I will go out on bigger lakes, farther, and for longer periods. That isn't possible for me right now, and isn't necessary. I enjoy the Sandpiper for what it is and I don't expect to live aboard it. IP: 68.252.125.184 |
2short S565
Member
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posted May 24, 2005 10:44 PM
I have had my Sandpiper on its side with the mast and main pretty well skimming the wave tops. After loosing attention while ruuning downwind in high seas while trying to start my motor with pretty well full sail up, the boat turned across the wind, weather helmed severely into the wind and did a 360. When it went into the wind I was standing vertually at 90 degrees to the boat in the cockpit, holding onto the high side lifeline to prevent from falling face first into the water.It came right back up. I also figure I did that just as bad twice earlier that day while in the cabin trying to batten the forward hatch in 6ft waves. The boat spun around 360 degrees twice puting me sitting on the low side window each time it went up into the wind. The Sandpiper could handle anything that I ever did to it. Please do not try this at home.
[This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited May 24, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited May 24, 2005).] IP: 70.48.165.76 |
Darcy
Member
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posted May 24, 2005 11:40 PM
Sanpipers are very hard to knock down. We've gone over but then the boat rounds up. We've never taken water in over the side. If you did, the boat has floatation.
D'ArcyIP: 209.82.28.125 |
CoolBreeze
Member
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posted May 25, 2005 07:39 AM
I don't think there is any question about the stability of the Piper, it is good. I think your question comes down to what ammenities you would like to have on board. The Piper is very simple, VERY simple. As for hull speed, off the top of my head, I'd say it would be around 5 knots (just a guess) but I can say from experience I've had mine 6.5 kts, non reefed main, 125% genoa, and I still felt stable. Most full keel boats tned to be a bit larger, therefore more things to make living or sleeping on board more enjoyable. Things such as a sink, larger head, larger berths, standing room, just to name a few. Besides that, there is the question of how much you want to sail. If you find yourself saying you would like to have the option to sail whenever, the a marina is for you, then ask yourself, if all else equal, which boat would you rather have at a marina. In this case, there is no big advantage to having a Piper, as you don't need the trailerability. I am just rambling on thoughts... so feel free to tune me out... I like my Piper, but really miss those things mentioned above that a keel boat tends to possess. NOW... C&C 27, great boat, pretty much full standing room, if you go down a couple feet to a 25, great boat, very sea worthy, almost full standing room, could save yourself some $$$. 27s are the first size where you can get them with a wheel or tiller. Tiller (i think) is better for racing, wheel is nice for cruising. My next boat will be a C&C 27 or 29. I have started to do some research and would take the C&C over the Tanzier ( I also race, so that plays into my decision to buy a C&C) Hope some of this helps..... ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"CoolBreeze"
Halifax NS
Dartmouth Yacht Club IP: 142.176.14.228 |
Ken
Member
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posted May 25, 2005 08:05 AM
The sites below are where we began.
http://sailquest.com/market/models/index.htm General comparisons:
http://sailquest.com/market/models/models3.htm
http://sailquest.com/market/models/models4.htm Classified ads:
http://www.boatforsale.org/
http://sailquest.com/market/index.htm
http://www.goodoldboat.com/
A good generalCanadian boating resource:
http://boating.ncf.ca/
Jack Pady on southern Georgian Bay was a great help to us when we went up north for a few days searching for boats http://www.yachtworld.com/jackpadymarine/ Mike came to Toronto to show us several boats......two these brokers have boats listed all over southern Ontario. http://www.niagarayachtsales.com/ Mike and Jack will talk boats over the phone, advise and show you boats in the water and on land, and just tell you where there are more boats for sale without any pressure at all to buy. There seem to be a lot of boats for sale in the Niagara on the Lake and Port Dalhousie areas, as well as on Georgian Bay. When touring around this spring and summer, drive to marinas such as Bluffer's Park, Port Credit, Burlington's LaSalle Park marina on Burlington Bay, Hamilton Harbour marinas, Port Dalhousie (great swimming beach and a 10c merry-go-round) , and Niagara on the Lake.
You can walk around the docks all day looking at boats, talking to owners and generally getting to know what you like. In our experience, sailors are almost always eager to invite you aboard for a deluxe guided tour when you express an interest in their particular kind of sailboat, and tell them you're trying to decide what you'd like to buy. These Ontario-built boats were the ones to which we narrowed our search last summer. They were all built from around 1974 - 1988 and have held their value well because they are good solid designs and very well built. Aloha 32 http://www.alohaowners.com/pages/ownerdatabase/Aloha_32_Owners_List.htm
http://www.wright-photo.com/meriah1.htm Aloha 34 http://www.aloha34.com/
Ontario 32 http://www.magma.ca/~mcsail/ont/ont28.htm Niagara 35 http://members.rogers.com/n35/index.html Bayfield http://www.geocities.com/bayfieldyachts/links.html
Slightly smaller...but excellent as a cruising starter boat would be the venerable C&C 27 http://sailquest.com/market/models/cc27n.htm
IP: 141.117.228.250 |
elmet3
Member
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posted May 28, 2005 11:06 PM
Had some experience with the stability issue yesterday. Had a buddy along and let him take the tiller. It was pretty windy and, upon realizing he didn't know how to sail, I kept hold of the mainsheet and the jibsheet so he could focus on going in the right direction, which seemed to be giving him some trouble. We managed to sail and tack despite the awkwardness of me having both sheets. He was getting the direction thing pretty well,so I cleated the sheets. I knew it was windy but we were under a reefed main and a working jib, with two in the boat to counterbalance I didn't expect things would go too far out of hand. We were beating upwind. Big gust came up and the boat started healing excessively. Normally I would head up, but Bill had the tiller and kept us on course. I had already learned that it did no good to give him instructions at stressful moments, so I didn't try. I could not uncleat the mainsheet sitting as far forward as I was and with so much tension on the mainsheet. We healed farther. I tried to uncleat the jib, but the force was too much for a quick job of it. Of course the Sandpiper will round up in these conditions, but Bill had the direction thing down now and he was dutifully holding the course. We healed farther. By this time I was standing on the seatback on the leeward side, leaning against the seat on the windward side, which was nearly vertical. I finally got the jib sheet loose, simultaneously the Sandpiper rouunded up.
The boom never went in the water, so we weren't horizontal, but we went over pretty far (next time I'm gonna remember to look at the inclinometer). The Sandpiper stood back up with no harm done. It actually gave me some confidence in the Stability of the boat. IP: 69.212.31.194 |
whited
unregistered
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posted May 29, 2005 11:31 AM
Letting a 'landlubber' have control of the tiller in heavy winds is a bit dicey.
I'd put him in charge of the jib sheets.IP: 156.34.82.87 |
elmet3
Member
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posted May 29, 2005 01:56 PM
Yep, that would be smart. But I thought he knew how to sail. He talked about sailing, turns out his girlfriend is an avid sailor, but seldom brings him along![This message has been edited by elmet3 (edited May 29, 2005).] IP: 69.212.31.194 |
whited
unregistered
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posted May 29, 2005 04:35 PM
Hee hee...now you know why!IP: 156.34.82.87 |
Dougster
Member
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posted June 03, 2005 07:27 PM
Thanks for your advice on this. My wife and I were out looking at a C&C 27 and Edel 820 today. This presented me with a new dilema the C&C is beautiful and up to date except the galley. The Edel has more room, a better galley and needs some cosmetic tlc. I've searched the web and can't find very much at all on the Edel. Does anyone have any experience with one of these?IP: 65.48.213.102 |
Ken
Member
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posted June 06, 2005 03:30 PM
C&C 27 is the Chevy of the sailboat world. Edels are nice too, but I try to always think of getting a class boat so there is some chance of reselling if/when you move up.
C&C 27s are very very common in Canada. There's lots of choice in the different C&C27 model years, and they have a good reputation too.
I went out on a limb with the relatively unknown Sandpiper back in 1988. Magregors were selling like hotcakes. Bigger boat...interesting features....but now look. The little Sandpiper 565 class has finally come into it's own. This list speaks for itself I think.IP: 141.117.228.250 |
whited
unregistered
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posted June 06, 2005 03:48 PM
Don't know anything about the bigger Edel, but there's an Edel 540 for sale in our local paper. According to Sailquest.com...it was competition for our Sandpipers.
Trouble is..it has a fixed keel, making it a bit harder to launch/recover. http://sailquest.com/market/models/edel5.htm IP: 156.34.48.6 |
Windroos
Member
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posted June 06, 2005 10:39 PM
Went sailing for 2 days friday and saturday.My new girlfriend love it but can sometime be unsecure. Saturday after 30 km on the St lawrence the wind picked up. Were were on the main only for the last 18km to go and the wind coming from the back. Waves were 3 feet hingh and sometime more. We were surfing and my GPS indicated often 18.9 KM / hr. She looked at me several time and I was signing. She felt safe and enjoyed her day. Waves breaking sown all around us. Just to say that this little one handle big wind and waves on the main only. No sense forcing the equipment. I know the Sandpiper since 1983 and it is really trustworthy. Always felt safe onboard. ------------------
John
Quebec city
1981 Sandpiper 927 IP: 66.131.169.240 |
whited
unregistered
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posted June 07, 2005 09:11 AM
Another 'new' woman? Is this the one who had the rainbow land on her hand?I wonder if my 'Piper will improve my social life? :-) IP: 156.34.48.6 |
Darcy
Member
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posted June 07, 2005 05:13 PM
Yep, the Sandpiper is a definite chick magnet.
D'ArcyIP: 67.70.84.107 |
Ken
Member
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posted June 10, 2005 09:40 AM
A great selection here:
http://www.sailmag.com/features/04fedaysailers.pdf http://sailquest.com/market/models/index.htm IP: 141.117.228.250 |
Sailing16
JuniorMember
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posted June 20, 2005 12:16 AM
Dougster... If you find a bigger boat and are looking to sell your 16.... give me a shout!IP: 69.198.139.46 |
Christine Hough
JuniorMember
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posted June 20, 2005 09:56 AM
If you are interested in selling your CL-16 please contact me. I am very interested in buying a used cl-16!
Christine IP: 130.15.144.191 |
Dougster
Member
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posted June 21, 2005 02:13 PM
I never thought I would get to this point however, my wife won't let me sell the 16 as she enjoys it too much. Some of us talked about this in a previous post. My wife has gone from being barely tolerant of my interest in sailing to not letting me sell the smaller boat when we move up. If anyone is having trouble convincing your significant other to invest in a sailboat, get them out on the water on a nice day. It works wonders. IP: 198.96.180.245 |
Dougster
Member
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posted July 27, 2005 01:33 PM
To close the loop with you helpful folks. The deed is done. I just finished sailing my new prize from the brokers to Frenchmans bay. A Jeanneau Fantasia 27  . Thanks to everyone who helped provide input. One thing that amazed through the whole process was that I couldn't find any practical written advice walking first time keel boats owners through everything you need to know from mooring to insurance to how the negotiation process goes. I have set myself a goal of publishing such a list however, I know I will probably never get around to it. If anyone is looking to move up and is looking for advice please drop me a line and I'll help if I can. IP: 198.96.180.245 |
whited
unregistered
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posted July 27, 2005 03:31 PM
Boy...you really did 'move on up'!
Congratulations..your new yacht must feel like a Cadillac after driving a mini.IP: 142.177.36.166 |
Dougster
Member
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posted October 07, 2005 06:09 PM
Just finished taking down the mast and the haul out. Off to Whitby to get the osmotic blistering attended to. I am looking forward to next spring for the launch and mast raising so I will have experienced all of the major annual events of a keel boat owner. A couple of picsIP: 70.26.104.38 |
Eric
Member
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posted October 08, 2005 09:30 PM
Hi Dougster!
Somehow I missed your "new boat" post in the summer  . Your Jeaneau looks fantastic, congratulations!!!!! I'm told they're a very nice sailboat. I really love the lines on her.One day I may take you up on your offer of move up advice. One never knows the info one gathers  I'm still hooked on trailering however, so my 'piper suits me fine for now  . The Jeaneau Tonic 23 is also a smart looking boat, and trailerable too!! Have fun at haul out! Eric
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited October 08, 2005).] IP: 64.228.1.66 |
Dougster
Member
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posted August 23, 2007 08:53 AM
The footitis has me . We have just moved up to a Catalina 30.
This means that the Jeanneau 27 is for sale. A great boat for anyone who is just getting into keel boating and wants something reliable, safe and easy to handle. It has served us well but now that my daughters are adult sized, it is a bit tight. Its listed on http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet¤cyid=100&boat_id=1759411&checked_boats=1759411&back=%2Fcore%2Flisting%2Fcache%2FsearchResults.j sp%3Fsm%3D3%26toLength%3D27%26cit%3Dtrue%26currencyid%3D100%26luom%3D126%26fromLength%3D27%26man%3Djeanneau%26slim%3Dquick&searchtype=">yachtworld.com.
CheersIP: 74.121.113.214 |
Dougster
Member
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posted August 23, 2007 08:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dougster:
The footitis has me . We have just moved up to a Catalina 30.
This means that the Jeanneau 27 is for sale. A great boat for anyone who is just getting into keel boating and wants something reliable, safe and easy to handle. It has served us well but now that my daughters are adult sized, it is a bit tight. Its listed on yachtworld.com.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by Dougster (edited August 23, 2007).] IP: 74.121.113.214 |
Dougster
Member
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posted August 23, 2007 08:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dougster:
The footitis has me . We have just moved up to a Catalina 30.
This means that the Jeanneau 27 is for sale. A great boat for anyone who is just getting into keel boating and wants something reliable, safe and easy to handle. It has served us well but now that my daughters are adult sized, it is a bit tight. Its listed on yachtworld.com Cheers
[This message has been edited by Dougster (edited August 23, 2007).] IP: 74.121.113.214 | |
