posted January 27, 2004 12:14 PM               

I've been following a thread on the TrailerSailor BB re the same sort of issue! The discussion is whether a smaller hp motor with a High Thrust prop is "equivelent" to a motor of slightly higher HP with a regular prop. A poster is concerned about excessive weight, with a bigger engine. I don't think a HT prop will add any more power in the long run, maybe quicker of the line, but eventually a higher HP motor will prevail, especially in conditions Ken speaks of.

My comment on all of this was the need to know resistance,(waves, current, headwind etc). As Ken pointed out, conditions can be heavier on the Great Lakes, as compared to my usual sailing on inland Lake Simcoe. I have a Merc 4.5hp longshaft, and it has proven to be quite satisfactory for me...on my lake! I personally don't think you'd need much bigger on a smaller lake, because currents, waves etc are lighter than on large lakes. I haven't had my Sandpiper out in any rough stuff on the Great Lakes yet, but I hope to this summer!

To summarize, I feel it would be difficult to characterize that a sailboat requires a certain sized motor and be done with it. I really feel that there could be choices dependeing on your sailing waters. 2hp could be adequate in a lot of conditions to propel the Sandpiper, but be useless in steep waves, current and wind on a large body of water, where greater hp is required to overcome the increased resistance!

By the way, Ken, did you ever cross Lake Ontario from Toronto to St.Catharines/Niagara in Shortwave? If no, would you?

Cheers Eric

[This message has been edited by Eric (edited January 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Eric (edited January 27, 2004).]

posted January 27, 2004 12:39 PM              

A few years ago when I was sunk by a J 24 we were hauled aboard the offending boat and powered back to shore. The san Juan 21 i was crewing on sank. To my dismay they only carried a 3 hp which was fine for going downwind but as soon as they tried to point into the wind, the motor became useless. I as completely enraged with their stupidity. I also saw a similar scenario in Bronton Ont. a few years ago. Underpowered and nearly washed into the seawall. Oddly enough it was also a J 24.

My theory: Be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

posted January 27, 2004 03:59 PM               

Having sailed through 60 knot winds on Lakes Simcoe & Rosseau, I'd advise going with 6 h.p. there as well. That short chop developed on a shallow lake like Simcoe can pound a boat just as well as Lake Ontario or the Pacific. No matter what motor you go with it should also be a long shaft (in my opinion).

posted January 28, 2004 02:54 PM               

I've only crossed the lake once, from Bronte to the Welland Canal, and that was on a 44' C&C! There was a good strong springtime wind, and we sailed across on a single starboard tack, on a reach with the rail down!

Personally, I feel that it can be done, but I was wondering what your thoughts and experiences are?

Thanks, Eric

posted January 28, 2004 05:35 PM               

At the usual sailing speeds (on a reach in a decent breeze) of 3 - 3.5 kts it would take too long for me to be comfortable with this trip.
It would possibly be in excess of 9 hours across, assuming a direct course and favourable winds and seas (unlikely). Given the prevailing south westerlies around here, the wind might be right on the nose going over, making tacking necessary. Tacking takes you away from the rhumb line. Coming home might be less wind, more wind, or the wrong wind. A long trip if you're running. I wouldn't hesitate to take a Sandpiper around the edge 'tho. In 2002 we sailed from Humber Bay to Lakeshore Yacht Club, Port Credit, Oakville and then Bronte Yacht Club. We had great conditions mostly, but did encounter two squalls with rain and heavy winds that drove us off the lake and into yacht clubs on two consecutive days. The heavy weather comes up really fast on those hot summer afternoons.
I'd not wish to be mid-lake on any 18 foot vessel!
If time had permitted on that trip, we would have continued to LaSalle Park marina on Burlington Bay, and then along the shore past Grimsby toward Port Dalhousie.

posted January 29, 2004 06:59 AM               

I figured roughly, that it would be 8-10hr sailing. That's a long time holding a tiller!!

I fully agree though, by the time I tie up at Port Dalhousie, I/we? would be very tired. The pubs better still be open 'cause a cold one, two or three will definately be in order followed by a long snooze!

I just think it would be a neat trip to test endurance etc. Not something I'd want to do regularly!
I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

posted January 29, 2004 01:02 PM              

For normal operation I just release all clamp pressure and the tiller moves normally without me holding the release lever.

posted January 30, 2004 01:11 PM               

Light wind can be as trickey as the heavy stuff. Two times during the night we had to motor out of the way of freighters as our speed under sail was not fast enough to clear their paths. You really have to keep a sharp eye. A freighter steaming at full speed can be on you in no time! We did watches - two to a watch (in case someone fell over board). I wouldn't want to do it alone. I also make sure I'm connected with a person overboard harness. The odds of you being recovered after falling in are greatly reduced. First fundimental rule of sailing: Don't fall overboard.

The up side: One of the most beautiful sun rises I've ever seen.

posted January 30, 2004 11:20 PM               

I enjoy having the only Sandpiper on the Lakes.

posted February 01, 2004 09:04 PM               

I'm familiar with those mountain lakes. I used to sail occasionally in the Okanagan. In the afternoon powerful thermal gusts would come shooting down the hills and onto the lake. All we could see was black water moving at us then wham!!! Over we'd go.

On that note; a real terrifying sail for me is when you're night sailing through squalls or heavy weather. It's very hard reading the gusts and rolling waves at night. In my opinion a smaller body of water like Lake Ontario is harder as the waves are short and steep. It really batters the boat. I encountered some heavy weather sailing around the Swiftsure light off of Vancouver Island. Although the waves were huge (15 foot rollers or so) at least your're not pounding as much. you can work your way up and down them. It's sort of like skiing only the moguls are moving.

posted February 01, 2004 10:56 PM               

And about the biggest wave I've encountered is about 3 foot.

I signed up for a costal navigation course that starts this Tuesday. 10 week course.

posted February 02, 2004 02:09 PM               

I've done the lake in a hobie 18, best time of my life... fast, wet and rough. I think I saw a movie like that once...

Keep talking,

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