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Author
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Topic: Racing??? Sandpipers
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CoolBreeze
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 10:38 AM
   
Hey all, hope everyone had a good holiday. Does anyone here race their Sandpiper? If you do, I am curious about the rating you have been assigned? How have you made out against other boats? Love to hear about how they hold up. I think I will be racing mine this upcoming season so... let the thread start!! ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"Cool Breeze"
Halifax NS
Soon to be at DYC IP: 24.224.173.200 |
Ken
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 12:21 PM
Back in '98 and '99 I entered the "Round the Island Race." It's held each year by Toronto Sailing and Canoe Club.Most boats chose to make a clockwise circuit, entering the inner harbour and then returning along the lake side of the island. We chose the counterclockwise route. Before we had even made it halfway along the island's shoreline, we were met by the majority of the fleet on their homeward bound leg. After the stragglers had passed us going the other way,(we're still outward bound) we then turned around and vainly tried to catch up. We radioed in our disqualification status and started the outboard. We barely arrived in time at the club's BBQ pit to grab a dawg and beer. It seems as if our particular Sandpiper was rated PRHF Lake Ontario as just a bit faster than a brick. Perhaps it was the skipper and crew???......Lynn and I have agreed to not discuss these races anymore. ------------------
"Never be afraid to try something new: Professionals built the Titanic
And amateurs built the Ark." IP: 141.117.228.250 |
Darcy
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 12:53 PM
They're the fastest boat I know of in 12" of water.We've paced ourselves upwind against a few cottage boats on our lake: We beat a Magregor sail / powerboat 24' (I think it had a 50 hp outboard.) in 15 to 20 knots of wind. We had a reef in the main and sailed very nicely by this box of a boat upwind. The reef kept us level and comfortable but still churning through the water. On the same day we also overtook an Acroid dinghy. We were out pointed and over taken by a Soling. We were having lunch at the time. They were hanging by their ankles outside the boat. I did enough of that in my youth. 3 to 4 knots steady speed seems to be our average. We've also passed Lasers in the shifty bays near our cottage. I think we just play shifts better than your average cottage sailor. D'Arcy IP: 70.48.5.37 |
SuperPiper
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 12:55 PM
Lake Ontario PHRF rated the Sandpiper 300 with spinnaker and 311 with white sails. At one time all ratings were posted on their website. However more recently, I was unable to find that information. Perhaps there were too many grievances due to inter-fleet or same-model variances.Maybe someone has paced their Sandpiper against a Shark or a Catalina 22 or an Edel 665 or a Tanzer 22. IP: 199.243.115.165 |
CoolBreeze
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 01:21 PM
Hmmmmm... I saw those ratings somewhere too. We don;t use PHRF down here, but I am sure I could do the conversion. Last summer, while the Tall Ships were here in halifax, I was out sailing in the harbour. On one of our windier days that week, I was averaging 5 knots. At one point, my GPS told me I hit 6.5 knots. Thats the fastest I have ever had her going, and I can tell you, we were moving!!! - Full main and Jib. I was letting out the main at times to the side stays. I didn't have it reefed cause I wanted to see her potential. I was very much impressed. Especially since I come from racing 25 and 30 footers. I love hearing all your racing stories with this boat, it gives me more of an idea how she'll handle!!! ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"Cool Breeze"
Halifax NS
Soon to be at DYC [This message has been edited by CoolBreeze (edited January 05, 2005).] IP: 24.224.173.200 |
whited
unregistered
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posted January 05, 2005 04:57 PM
Rob;
Did you try this site... http://www.nsya.ns.ca/
I couldn't get the list of yachts to work.
IP: 142.177.33.151 |
2short S565
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 06:38 PM
opps[This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited January 06, 2005).] IP: 70.48.164.211 |
2short S565
Member
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posted January 05, 2005 06:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SuperPiper:
[B]Maybe someone has paced their Sandpiper against a Shark [B]
The Sandpiper cannot compete even closely to the Shark. I have tried, not in races but many times sailing along with one on day outings. Thats with new sails and smooth bottom on the Sandpiper and not really the best sails on the Shark.
On a good reach and in the right breeze I could almost lag behind a little. Into the wind, in higher winds or in rougher water the Sandpiper .. well that was just plain embarassing. Thats why I sold my Sandpiper and started to look for something better performing.
This specifies the PHRF of the Sandpiper as being around 300 as you suggested; http://sailquest.com/market/models/spipe.htm
I believe the PHRF of the Shark is around 228.
IP: 70.48.164.211 |
Ken
Member
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posted January 06, 2005 10:25 AM
Our Niagara 35 is rated PRHF-Lake Ontario 165 to 188.5.
Is that good?One time in Georgian Bay North Channel's Frazer Bay we were on a close reach with the GPS reporting 6.3 kts
That's the fastest that we'vr ever gone in ShortWave. No doubt the simple three- point rigging system allows the jib's luff to sag when close hauled. Back in the late '70s I was bobbing around on Lake Huron with an old 12' Grumman aluminum daysailor. A Laser virtually blew by me in light winds. I bought a 2nd hand Laser in 1984 and began my education, sailing her in every wind and sea state from May until Thanksgiving on Georgian Bay, Lake Rosseau and Lake Winnipeg. One afternoon I sailed the Laser over 15 miles on Lake Rosseau from Horsehoe Bay to Skelton Bay and back, circumnavigating the large Tobin's Island. I arrived home after midnight......the winds pretty much died after sunset. After four years of skimming around alone, in 1988 I moved up to the Sandpiper!
[This message has been edited by Ken (edited January 06, 2005).] IP: 141.117.228.250 |
Darcy
Member
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posted January 06, 2005 06:05 PM
Ken: You'll be happy to know we did a similar Lake Rosseau trip on a windy day in Shortwave. It took us 5 hours.D'Arcy IP: 67.71.53.106 |
2short S565
Member
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posted January 06, 2005 08:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken:
[B]Our Niagara 35 is rated PRHF-Lake Ontario 165 to 188.5.
Is that good?B]
Pretty good in my opinion  I could not find a boat in any ratings lists with a rating less than the Sandpiper. I'm not knocking it ...the Sandpiper has it purpose ... just not in going anywhere fast in my opinion.
[This message has been edited by 2short S565 (edited January 06, 2005).] IP: 70.48.164.211 |
Hyprstitch
Member
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posted January 06, 2005 08:52 PM
Many times when I pull you to the parking area at the lake there are people already rigging their boat. I rig my sandpiper and start sailing and they are still in the parking lot. Same thing when getting ready to go home. And my Sandpiper is pre scratched. So in someways, the Sandpiper is a faster boat.Sid IP: 64.12.117.13 |
2short S565
Member
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posted January 06, 2005 10:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Hyprstitch:
Many times when I pull you to the parking area at the lake there are people already rigging their boat. I rig my sandpiper and start sailing and they are still in the parking lot. Same thing when getting ready to go home. And my Sandpiper is pre scratched. So in someways, the Sandpiper is a faster boat.Sid
Now thats a good point. I kept mine at a marina slip and I could be at full sail IN THE MARINA and headed out the marina approach faster than even most of the power boats. But to head out on a 20 to 30 mile voyage well thats when things kinda goes into a time warp.
IP: 70.48.164.211 |
Darcy
Member
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posted January 07, 2005 01:16 AM
Two more points on this racing thing guys :1) Whenever you can, race one design. All the boats are the same so speed is not the issue; skill is the issue. Our guys raced Optimists (not a fast boat) for years and had a great time. A lot of the top U.S. started in boats like Sneakboxes, etc. (Again, not a particularly fast boat) and became excellent sailors. 2) We are taking Mans' slowest form of tranportation and racing it so I wouldn't get too hung up on speed. I'm with you Sid. We're half way down the lake by time the other guys at the ramp are in the water. From a dock start we just unfurl and go. Even our powerboat neighbours have to wait while their blowers blow. D'Arcy IP: 67.71.53.106 |
Darcy
Member
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posted January 07, 2005 01:21 AM
1) Whenever you can, race one design. All the boats are the same so speed is not the issue; skill is the issue. Our guys raced Optimists (not a fast boat) for years and had a great time. A lot of the top U.S. sailors started in boats like Sneakboxes, etc. (Again, not a particularly fast boat) and became excellent sailors.Oops! missed a word. My appologies to all U.S. sailors. D'Arcy IP: 67.71.53.106 |
Eric
Member
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posted January 07, 2005 08:29 AM
I don't know what to compare the Sandpiper to in ratings etc, but considering it's LWL, I think it's performance is OK.
Let's face it, the Sandpiper is one of the shortest (in length) on the lake, so of course most others will pass us.
I remember one time last summer, I was poking around in Cooks Bay, singlehandling. A Tanzer 7.5 came out of the marina and raised sail. I was a little ahead of him. Eventually they caught up to me and overtook me, on the same tack. The 2 guys were getting comfortable in the T 7.5.
I went into "anal trim mode", and continually tweaked my trim, to the point where I came to within a couple boat lengths. They looked at me and decided they better trim their sails, so as not to be overtaken by me  , and then they eventually tacked away! They weren't sailing especially sloppy, I was just trying harder to maximize my speed. It was kinda neat . I'm no expert racing sailor or anything, but it's fun to try and get the best out of your sails.On another occasion, with reefed main, and storm jib, on a close reach in Georgian Bay, I hit 7.1 Knots for a brief moment on the GPS. Most of that journey, we were in the low mid 6's.
Here's a pic of some pretty good speed on the lake, sunny cool, on a bit of a broad reach. My son was at the helm
Thats glare not a crack.
The helmsman! 
In summary, we can't point too high, but with decent trim, I think we do OK, at least I'm wearing a big grin 
Eric
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited January 07, 2005).] IP: 206.172.173.41 |
whited
unregistered
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posted January 07, 2005 12:12 PM
Anybody pace their 'Piper against a CL16 or CL14? I'm guessing they may be quick in strong winds because of their semi-planing hulls. IP: 142.177.33.151 |
Pathfinder
Member
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posted January 07, 2005 02:23 PM
My friend's Wayfarer does circles around my 'Piper.IP: 66.203.174.151 |
whited
unregistered
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posted January 07, 2005 04:24 PM
Oh oh....guess I won't be 'trash talking' any of our 16 & 14 brothers before next July's big gathering. :-) IP: 142.177.33.151 |
CoolBreeze
Member
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posted January 08, 2005 09:18 AM
Great thoughts!!! I think the moral of the story is that it really comes down to the sailor. Yes the boat definately has its limitations, but I think the only way to see how she'd do, is to try racing it. Although I am not the most experienced sailor, I will be willing to try. I was thinking of setting up a website this winter, and I will try to post my results of races I enter, pics too of course. ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"Cool Breeze"
Halifax NS
Soon to be at DYC IP: 24.215.107.164 |
elmet3
Member
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posted January 08, 2005 09:31 AM
I've never raced, but now I'm getting interested in some short tests at the rendezvous. Gotta be fun to race against other Sandpipers. Who's going to put together the Trophy and the huge cash prizes? I will be sailing singlehanded, but I suppose most of us will?Arthur IP: 69.212.30.69 |
CoolBreeze
Member
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posted January 08, 2005 10:22 AM
No matter how the Piper holds up against other boats, Class racing is always the best anyways. No handicaps, just one start, one finish, and the first person across wins. (You'd have to make a rule about Spinnakers though) But where it'd only be for fun anyway, it would be interesting to race. Unfortunately, I can't make it up there this summer, but what a great idea. The nice thing about the Sandpiper, is if you want to race it (white sails) you can by your self if you have it rigged well. You really should have two people just in case something goes wrong, which, no matter what the time or date or winds, something can always go wrong. I plan on racing mine with 2, and sometimes 3. Heavier wind, 4, so I can have some rail weight. My fisrt time ever sailing was two years ago, it was a Wed night RACE. So I was thrown right into it. You get out of it, what you put into it. For anyone who likes to sail, but has never tried sailing in a race, I would highly recommend it, even if you can get on a friend's boat who races, as a crew member sometime. I guarantee you will learn something new about sailing as the crew constantly banks ideas off each other, but with some pressure cause of the race, you become a quick thinker in many types of winds and scenarios. You can take this back to pleasure sailing and use it on your own boat (looking for good wind, feeling headers and lifters, looking for lifts off the land etc...) I want to sail now after writing all that!!!! ------------------
Rob Belliveau
1976 Sandpiper 565
"Cool Breeze"
Halifax NS
Soon to be at DYC IP: 24.215.107.164 |
whited
unregistered
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posted January 08, 2005 08:21 PM
As Rob said...racing on another's boat can be educational. Just make sure you pick someone who is knowledgeable, competitive yet forgiving of mistakes.
We used to race by 'committee' because the owner wasn't overly knowledgeable himself.
When situations came up, you'd have three or four people yelling instructions..sometimes contradictory moves. At one point we imported a helmsman who knew what he was doing, but he acted like Capt Bligh.
I lost my interest in the Squadron Wednesday night races. We always ended up at or near the back of the 'B' group.IP: 142.177.33.151 |
Darcy
Member
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posted January 09, 2005 04:16 PM
The rendezvous would be a great place to pick up some Sandpiper go-fast ideas. You'll learn as much off the water as on in pork roast conversations and tying or trailering up next to other Sandpipers.We could also switch skippers when not racing so the faster guys could show the slower guys how they sail the boat. We do this in the Shark fleet a lot; it really helps. What you learn racing can be carried over when cruising. We do much better tacking up channels while cruising because we've raced together. D'Arcy IP: 65.92.115.120 |
whited
unregistered
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posted January 09, 2005 06:35 PM
That sounds like a great idea D'Arcy.
I wondered how many skippers fiddled with their main halyards, outhauls etc during a race.IP: 142.177.33.151 | |
